Should the UK remain in Europe

[Sniff]

I am very unhappy with the EU and I have never had a chance to vote. For me like Denise it's about the future of my children. I don't believe it is a good thing, even before the financial problems. At the moment the UK government is taking the Commission to court because the EU commission wants the largest clearing house on financial transactions to locate out of the UK. That's says it all for me. Financial Services are a big service sector in the UK and this would have a huge impact on revenue and jobs for the UK, if they get their way. They churn out directive after directive every day. The UK pays in more than we get back, so I think it's time to say, it really hasn't worked for us. Anyway, who on earth thought a one size fits all would work. It would be the same if someone said "hey villa owners, you have to abide by one set of rules regardless of your size of villa", we know it wouldn't work for us and it clearly hasn't worked with the EU.

As I said, for me personally the EU is a good thing. I don't have children, but if I did their current and future well-being would be totally dependant upon the freedom of work and abode that the UK being part of the EU affords me. As is my future and current well-being. I fully understand the issues other people have with the EU and the way it operates for the UK. But that (in my view) is as much down to the way the UK wants (or not) to participate as it is with the way the EU operates.

The Euro in its current form was always going to be difficult to operate. The question is whether the solution is to break it apart and go back to the individual national currencies, or to go to a financial control model where most fiscal policy is set centrally (as in the USA). Personally I'd vote for the latter, because I live in Germany and I'm sick of bailing out "less responsible" countries, but if I lived in Greece or Portugal or even Ireland I'd probably have a different point of view.

I think you are missing some of the main points keith. It really bugs me (wanted to use stronger words) when we are told what we can and cannot do, what we can call things and what we cannot and some of the stupid laws they impose on us like letting in doctors that can't speak English or are qualified enough killing Brits is TOTALLY NOT ACCEPTABLE.

Under NO circumstances should the UK be fully in and personally I would prefer us to to be fully out. They all hate us especially France (that's why we will never be part of the club) and we get stitched up time and time again. We put more money into the EU than will ever get out of it so I have never seen any advantages of being in it.

I agree there are many negative points to being in the EU, and I would never argue otherwise. But I think a balanced viewpoint would also reveal many advantages, and the tabloid headline kind of arguments simply serve to obscure the real arguments. I could dig up many examples of jobs that would not exist if it were not for the EU. just as you could probably find many that have been lost because of the EU. I just personally don't believe that a country can stand alone in this day and age, and in fact I doubt many countries actually do, regardless of their sovereign tendencies.

The French don't hate the UK, and neither do the Germans - that's just a typical English egocentric view. On a day-to-day basis they couldn't care less about the UK. The Germans don't even consider England to be their traditional footballing enemy (that would be the Dutch) so they are all amazed when they read that the UK complains constantly about the EU. They just don't understand why the UK tries to be in both camps at once, and doesn't make a decision one way or the other. So in that respect, they are in total agreement with you :-)

[SteveandJan]

Total control from one central command is not a good idea. European countries managed with their own currencies for hundreds of years. People still had the freedom of movement before the EU, it's a smokescreen to tell us otherwise. You had to apply for a work permit and I don't see any wrong with that. If your skills and expertise is what that country wants, then you will always be able to have that opportunity and each country is able to control their own labour market to suit their needs, not theirs plus 25 other countries. I do hope I get my say and it will clearly be No. You only need to look at the common fisheries policy, we are throwing tons upon tons of food away and this has been going on for the past 10 years plus all because of one EU policy. The EU is too restrictive for each country's needs, they are not able to react quickly enough as can been seen with Greece. How is lending to Greece at punitive rates a good thing for them, they will never be able to get their country to grow again without total control. If Greece still had the drachma, they would never have got themselves into this mess and would be able to devalue. 80% of our laws in the UK are EU directives. I used to love to visit each country that had different currencies, and yes there were times when it was cheaper to Spain rather than Italy. I always used to holiday in Greece and I love the Greek Islands but since the introduction of the Euro, it has become very expensive. Every person that I know who is living abroad that adopted the Euro say how much everything went up after its introduction.

We are a democratic country, well so they say and I do hope that I get my say along with everyone else in the UK and all other EU citizens. When have the rest of Europe ever had a say?. France voted no to the last big treaty, along with Holland and Ireland and what happened, they got told go back and vote again. That is not democracy to me.

It's a great debate and I am so glad you raised it Steve and we all have our reasons for being in or out.

[wrpac00]

As I said, for me personally the EU is a good thing. I don't have children, but if I did their current and future well-being would be totally dependant upon the freedom of work and abode that the UK being part of the EU affords me. As is my future and current well-being. I fully understand the issues other people have with the EU and the way it operates for the UK. But that (in my view) is as much down to the way the UK wants (or not) to participate as it is with the way the EU operates.

The Euro in its current form was always going to be difficult to operate. The question is whether the solution is to break it apart and go back to the individual national currencies, or to go to a financial control model where most fiscal policy is set centrally (as in the USA). Personally I'd vote for the latter, because I live in Germany and I'm sick of bailing out "less responsible" countries, but if I lived in Greece or Portugal or even Ireland I'd probably have a different point of view.


I agree there are many negative points to being in the EU, and I would never argue otherwise. But I think a balanced viewpoint would also reveal many advantages, and the tabloid headline kind of arguments simply serve to obscure the real arguments. I could dig up many examples of jobs that would not exist if it were not for the EU. just as you could probably find many that have been lost because of the EU. I just personally don't believe that a country can stand alone in this day and age, and in fact I doubt many countries actually do, regardless of their sovereign tendencies.

The French don't hate the UK, and neither do the Germans - that's just a typical English egocentric view. On a day-to-day basis they couldn't care less about the UK. The Germans don't even consider England to be their traditional footballing enemy (that would be the Dutch) so they are all amazed when they read that the UK complains constantly about the EU. They just don't understand why the UK tries to be in both camps at once, and doesn't make a decision one way or the other. So in that respect, they are in total agreement with you :-)

You obviously didn't hear what the French President said about Cameron the other day then. The French always have hated and always will hate the English, it's a fact of life that you would see if you went to France.

[wrpac00]

Total control from one central command is not a good idea. European countries managed with their own currencies for hundreds of years. People still had the freedom of movement before the EU, it's a smokescreen to tell us otherwise. You had to apply for a work permit and I don't see any wrong with that. If your skills and expertise is what that country wants, then you will always be able to have that opportunity and each country is able to control their own labour market to suit their needs, not theirs plus 25 other countries. I do hope I get my say and it will clearly be No. You only need to look at the common fisheries policy, we are throwing tons upon tons of food away and this has been going on for the past 10 years plus all because of one EU policy. The EU is too restrictive for each country's needs, they are not able to react quickly enough as can been seen with Greece. How is lending to Greece at punitive rates a good thing for them, they will never be able to get their country to grow again without total control. If Greece still had the drachma, they would never have got themselves into this mess and would be able to devalue. 80% of our laws in the UK are EU directives. I used to love to visit each country that had different currencies, and yes there were times when it was cheaper to Spain rather than Italy. I always used to holiday in Greece and I love the Greek Islands but since the introduction of the Euro, it has become very expensive. Every person that I know who is living abroad that adopted the Euro say how much everything went up after its introduction.

We are a democratic country, well so they say and I do hope that I get my say along with everyone else in the UK and all other EU citizens. When have the rest of Europe ever had a say?. France voted no to the last big treaty, along with Holland and Ireland and what happened, they got told go back and vote again. That is not democracy to me.

It's a great debate and I am so glad you raised it Steve and we all have our reasons for being in or out.

Great post, spot on.

[taylona]

Part of the problem is that the UK doesn't really "belong to this club". For many reasons the UK chose to only partially belong to Europe, and I think that is wrong. It pisses off the other European countries much more than you might realise, as they see the UK as wanting all the benefits but without paying the price of membership. Of course that view is not 100% correct either. But I do believe the UK should either have been fully in (including common currency and Schengen agreement) or fully out. That's why I voted that the "UK should renegotiate its relationship" - and I suspect that any referendum of the UK public right now would end in total withdrawal. I would vote for UK to stay in EU, because the benefits to me personally have been huge, but I realise that's not true for everyone.

Until those that are responsible for the subscription to this club explain the pros and cons more fully the UK will question our membership... and then give the people their vote. I too voted for the UK to renegotiate but I would like the facts - something I don't think I've ever had.

[Sniff]

If Greece still had the drachma, they would never have got themselves into this mess and would be able to devalue.

The "mess" the Greeks are in is not due to them being in the Euro. Rather it's due to decades of living beyond their means, a tendency to use the black economy rather than pay taxes, a civil service that is hugely overblown, and a fragile economy based on tourism. When the world economic crisis hit, and that fragile economy started to collapse, the Greeks found the harsh realities of economics hitting them. That would have happened whether Greece had the Euro, the drachma or green cheese as their currency. One thing is for sure, the world banks would NOT have accepted a 50% loss on Greek debt, nor bailed them out with another 100m Euros, if they'd been an independant country with their own currency. Devaluing their own currency would have done absolutely nothing to help Greece pay its debt. They are being bailed out because they are part of the Euro, with the backing of Germany and France standing surety, and that is what might actually save Greece. But they absolutely need to change the way they run their economy or it will all be for nothing.

Every person that I know who is living abroad that adopted the Euro say how much everything went up after its introduction.

Just like every person in the UK says how much everything went up when the country switched to a decimal currency in 1971. That's not a fault of the currency per se, rather the greed of the traders taking the chance to make a quick profit.

We are a democratic country, well so they say and I do hope that I get my say along with everyone else in the UK and all other EU citizens. When have the rest of Europe ever had a say?. France voted no to the last big treaty, along with Holland and Ireland and what happened, they got told go back and vote again. That is not democracy to me. .

That I absolutely agree with

[Sniff]

You obviously didn't hear what the French President said about Cameron the other day then. The French always have hated and always will hate the English, it's a fact of life that you would see if you went to France.

You need to distinguish between a political soundbite from a president fighting for support for unpopular policies, that is aimed primarily at a sceptical domestic electorate, and the national sentiments of millions of people. Honestly, if you truly believe that the French hate the English then I feel sorry for you.

I go to France regularly, at least a couple of times a month - half of the company I work for is based in Nice, and I deal with French people every single day. My company is hugely multi-cultural - I live and work daily next to Germans, French, Italian, Spanish, Portuguese, Dutch, Czech, Hungarian, Russian, American, Canadian - 47 different nationalties at the last count. And none of them hate the English. This blinkered viewpoint is fostered by a xenophobic English tabloid press that is working to its own political agenda. No one in Europe can muster enough energy to even care one way or another about the UK, let alone hate them - they are too busy trying to manage their own lives to worry about the UK.

[Snapper]

The "mess" the Greeks are in is not due to them being in the Euro. Rather it's due to decades of living beyond their means, a tendency to use the black economy rather than pay taxes, a civil service that is hugely overblown, and a fragile economy based on tourism. When the world economic crisis hit, and that fragile economy started to collapse, the Greeks found the harsh realities of economics hitting them. That would have happened whether Greece had the Euro, the drachma or green cheese as their currency. One thing is for sure, the world banks would NOT have accepted a 50% loss on Greek debt, nor bailed them out with another 100m Euros, if they'd been an independant country with their own currency. Devaluing their own currency would have done absolutely nothing to help Greece pay its debt. They are being bailed out because they are part of the Euro, with the backing of Germany and France standing surety, and that is what might actually save Greece. But they absolutely need to change the way they run their economy or it will all be for nothing.

Is this right though?

If Greece still had their own currency wouldn't they just devalue it (perhaps slowly over time) and in so doing they would just inflate their way out of debt? Plus the devaluation would boost their tourism industry.

For the banks, if Greece had their own currency and defaulted on their debts, wouldn't the world banks have no choice but to accept whatever haircut was necessary. My memory fails me but didn't something similar happen when Russia defaulted back in, was it 98 or 99?

[Sniff]

Is this right though?

If Greece still had their own currency wouldn't they just devalue it (perhaps slowly over time) and in so doing they would just inflate their way out of debt? Plus the devaluation would boost their tourism industry.

For the banks, if Greece had their own currency and defaulted on their debts, wouldn't the world banks have no choice but to accept whatever haircut was necessary. My memory fails me but didn't something similar happen when Russia defaulted back in, was it 98 or 99?

How would lowering the value of their currency on the open markets help Greece pay back the billions it owes? It's debt is 160% of GDP and Greece is technically bankrupt. Without some money from somewhere Greece will soon be forced to default on its loan repayments. The banks might be forced (out of pragmatism) to accept a default on payment by Greece, but they certainly wouldn't lend them any more. It's only the guarantee of surety from the rest of the EU that has allowed Greece to borrow what it needs. That would mean Greece's economy would continue to stagnate, with no opportunity for cash injection to revitalise it. A devalued currency would also massively increase the price of imports.

I don't believe that a currency devaluation would boost Greece's tourism industry much. That industry has not collapsed because Greece is expensive compared to other tourist destinations. It has collapsed because of an unprecendented worldwide econmoic crisis that has seen all tourism hit. People are not travelling anywhere, it's not just Greece. It might lower the cost of a holiday to Greece by devaluing, but if no-one can afford a holiday anyway, what will it achieve?

[Snapper]

How would lowering the value of their currency on the open markets help Greece pay back the billions it owes?

I don't claim to be an economist but I thought that happened because the debt would be denominated in Greece's currency, Drachma say?

So a hotel in Greece might currently offer a room for, say, 25,000 Drachma; and for want of any other figures, let's say that 20% of that eventually trickles back to the government in taxes. If the exchange rate against the Euro was EUR 1 = GRD 250, for someone from Europe booking that hotel room it would cost them around EUR 100. The Greek government would net 5,000 Drachma from this. That's either 5,000 Drachma or 20 Euros. If their debt is denominated in Drachma, they can repay 5,000 Drachma.

If Greece then inflated its currency by, say, 25%, in theory that same hotel room will cost GRD 31,250 and at the same time the exchange rate will fall to EUR 1 = GRD 312.5. Someone from Europe booking that hotel room will still pay EUR 100 for it because of the fall in the exchange rate. The Greek government would now net 20% of GRD 31,250 = GRD 6,250. So they can now afford to repay 6,250 Drachma.

This wouldn't address any structural problems the country might have (black market trade, size of public/government organisations, social security, etc.) so it's never going to be a permanent fix. But it could put a plaster on things for a while.

It's interesting stuff though Keith. I think we are in for a few interesting years, especially with the outcome of last night's agreement. If I might quote directly from the Beeb's website:

But perhaps most significant was eurozone leaders' announcement that there will be tougher controls in future on the budgets of member countries, integration of taxation, and a whole new framework for running the eurozone, including a new leadership structure which will rival the decision-making mechanism of the wider European Union.

The Europe five years from now might be quite a different beast from the Europe of today.